The point was that I couldn't believe that. She sent me to go shopping, and there were long, long lines because the people thought that the war would be very soon and everybody wanted to buy some flour and sugar, salt and things like that. And it was unbelievable — at least to me — because politics meant nothing to me those times.
Did they talk with you?
Yeah, they tried, I think, because we were young girls and they wanted to make friends. But we were scared, so we always ran away from them and we didn't talk to them.
And at school, of course — I started to go to secondary school, gymnasium. It was my first grade there. It started in September, and so there were new students, we didn't know anything. But the other students involved us in their activities. So they started to complain about things, like a lot of people did.
Did anything happen to the students then?
No, because it was very soon after the revolution and the people were very friendly to each other. So it didn't happen. But it was a strange feeling. We felt like friends all together. Those times the people didn't think about their profits, and they were open to each other, and they wanted Russia to go away.
Did anything happen with that?
Those times it didn't happen anything bad. It was later.
That I remember very strongly. Because at the beginning, when the tanks came, everybody was against that and the people were really friendly, and they didn't blame each other for doing things like that, because almost everybody did that.
In Brno.
In Brno, yeah. It was especially students and young people who were demonstrating. And there were a lot of Lidová Milice — it was something like a military organisation that was established at any factory. Especially men who were trained for fighting against enemies, especially class enemies. And it was those people who got guns, weapons, and they tried to fight against the people who demonstrated. And they really shot, and they injured some people. I know that at least one or two persons, young boys, were killed here in Brno. It happened on Zelný trh.
So this was Normalisation?
Normalisation, yes.
And that was bad because people started to be enemies to each other, and you didn't know who was who.
What happened to the people who refused?
It was very individual. The people who I know — I don't know if anything happened to them that was serious, or anything that was noticeable. At least they didn't tell me. In fact, I didn't notice anything. Maybe something happened, but I don't think so. I think that there must have been some people who refused and something happened to them, but I don't know personally.
1977, Charter 77 — what kind of contact did you have with that? Or did you hear about it and how did you hear about it?
I was on maternity leave those times, so I didn't have any —
Where were you working at that time?
Well, at that time I didn't work, because I had a little baby, so I had maternity leave. But I was employed at the travel bureau [travel agency — name to verify]. And I didn't know anything special about Charter — just what I read in newspapers.
So it made it into the newspapers?
Well, and that was a funny thing — because the Charter wasn't in the newspapers, but there was just an explanation, or something, that we should refuse it. And nobody knew what it was, but everybody was forced to sign the refusement of the Charter. So I was partly naive of political things, and I knew a lot of people who signed a refusement of Charter. I wanted to know what was in the Charter, and I asked those people what was there — and they didn't know.
Did you end up finding out more about Charter? Did you learn more, or that was it?
I learned something more — but later, I think two or three years later — when my friend got a Charter, a copy of Charter, in a legal way, of course. I read it. But I didn't join the people who signed it. Partly because nobody asked me to sign a Charter, and partly because I knew some people who were involved in that dissident program and I didn't like those people, so I wasn't going to be their friends. It wasn't a matter of politics, it was a matter of personal relationship.
How about the people that you knew who were involved in dissident activities? Did anything — were they under surveillance? Or did the police watch them that you knew of? Did everybody know they were dissidents, or did only certain people know?
Those people who I knew — I don't know what happened to them. I was not sure that they were watched, because one of them was the main leader in Brno in the '60s — and after the revolution I learned that he was in prison. I didn't doubt that, because if he was not, who else?
But it's a story from my life. My father was a doctor, and my mother was a doctor, and my grandfather was a businessman — not businessman, he built houses and then sold them — and my grandmother's family were big farmers. So it was not good origin for communist times, and my parents were not in the party. But my father was a pretty clever man, and he really reached a good job and good standing.
What time period would that be?
1971. After Normalisation — after 1970 and later. So it happened regularly every two years or something like that. Because my father made a laugh at that, and he always told us: "Oh, I'll be promoted."
How — the '70s were strong Normalisation, and then it slowed down? Or it wasn't as bad after a while? What happened, and how could you tell?
Yeah, I'm thinking about my feelings. I think that the people changed. I'm talking about, I would say, normal people — because I didn't have strong contact with the dissidents. I knew about them, but I didn't cooperate with them just because they didn't want me to cooperate with them.
What would be an example of that?
For example, Miloš Jakeš — he was the head of the Communist Party, and he was so stupid that it was like a joke.
So the '80s were in fact a lot like the '70s?
I don't think so. Let me think for a while. [Pause.]
When did that start?
I can't remember — it must have been a long time ago. As far as I can remember it was here. It was here from the beginning of TV at least. 25 years ago, maybe 20. 25 years ago, I'm sure. And almost everybody can speak German here, if not very well, but to understand things.
I've seen a couple of them. Did you have any contact with those books?
Yes, I got Havel's book — no, like text, I don't know exactly what it was, because I don't like reading, because it was a play, and I didn't like reading them those times. Because it's hard to read as a play — much better to see it on the stage, because it was interesting. But as a written text it was too complicated for me.
Where would that have come from?
A friend gave it to me — or borrow. And it would have been from a dissident author of some sort. That man lived abroad.
And did that affect your circle of friends and so on, I imagine? Would it make it small?
No.
That would affect your circle of friends and who you trusted.
I don't think so, because the people who I would call friends, even if some of them were communists, I trusted them. So I didn't suppose that they would watch me or tell something what I said. It covered.
[On the 1980s and small freedoms] — for example, the children here, like to play, especially boys being Indians — like, sleeping in tipi and making fire and things like that. They could do that, but they couldn't say that they were Indians, so they had to say that they were Russian Partisans. And five years before the revolution they could say "We are Indians."
1984 — Gorbachev and his reforms. How were they presented here? And what did it make you think — that you would get the same kind of reforms?
It was like — you know, I'm telling you my personal point of view. I think that officially they said that he was good, but I don't think that they wanted to follow his reforms. But on the other hand, at that time we felt something like that — that something had to happen. We didn't know exactly what, but something.
What would be an example of a stupid thing?
For example, when you went abroad, you had to fill in — after coming back — if you met any foreigner, and what he asked you and what you answered, and if he wanted something to do, and if you did something. And it was all the time. I couldn't go there. It was very complicated to get permission to go there. I had to ask a lot of people and fill in a lot of forms. It was incredible.
Now, 1989. The Velvet Revolution. How did you see it coming, and what happened at your place of work?
So I was a Pioneer leader at those times. It would be a long story to explain how it worked — but I started to be a Pioneer leader because I liked to work with children, and because I am not educated for that, it was the only way how to do that. And it was, I don't know, three or four years in that position, in that job.
You told him that if it was true he won't be in the job anymore?
Me. That I wouldn't want to stay like a Pioneer leader, because — and he said like "relax."
That was Monday, Tuesday?
It was Monday — Monday evening. And we went, and it was a demonstration on náměstí Svobody, and there were a lot of — not tanks, but military vehicles. And there was the organisation that I talked to before [the Lidová Milice], and there were a lot of policemen. So we didn't know what would happen. But nothing serious happened.
What do you think of the revolution? Has it fulfilled its promise? Are things going the way you think it should?
Much more. I think that it goes the best way that it was possible. Of course it could be better. But I think in general it's much better, and that it couldn't be better in the situation that it started from. There are a lot of bad things, and there is big chaos. I think that former communists took the best positions and they have the best profit, and normal people don't usually have profit — big profit — from that. But I think that we all have the profit from that, because it's much better.
And what's happened with the former communists that you knew?
For example, Šabata — he was a main leader in the '60s, and he was a former communist, but then he was expelled from the party and he was imprisoned. And in '89 he came again to power. But now he is not in power. I don't care, because I didn't like him.
We would say he's born again.
Yes.
He was in Brno?
No, no, no. He was in Prague.
Paul told me that you're generally very busy, so I don't want to keep you any longer than — one more cigarette at a time. Thank you. So I guess maybe to wrap things up — is there anything else you think I should know about this system, or from your point of view, that would be interesting for my project?
There are a lot of things. But I think that you met Aaron and interviewed a lot of people, so you have a lot of points of view. I think that the present is much better than it used to be. But it needs a lot of time for being that good.
What would be an example of that?
A lot of things — but watch for example TV Nova. It's horrible, because I am not used to advertisement in the middle of a movie. That's the most horrible thing, if you are watching something really good — and now you have an advertisement about cars or whatever, detergents. If it is — if you are watching a comedy or something, you don't mind it. But if it's supposed to be a really good movie, or something really good, it's like — Great. TV. We're used to that.
I think in 10 years, I have a feeling — in around 10 years — Czech will probably be part of a European community.
Hmm. Well, it's — I don't know. You know — even the European countries don't know exactly what that means. For example, the English — they don't want to be a part of European community, because they have special culture, and they don't want to give up something that they would have to if they wanted to be a part of European community.
Why not?
Because I think that a lot of people would like to have no military service, no army, and — just be neutral. Like Costa Rica. Costa Rica is the same. It's a little bit difficult. I think that Europe doesn't know exactly what it was.
But it's interesting. It's an interesting time.
Yes, it is.
Are you excited?
- The shootings on Zelný trh, 21 August 1969 (Section 3) — the Lidová Milice firing on student demonstrators on the first anniversary of the invasion. "At least one or two persons, young boys, were killed here in Brno." Specific, located, eyewitness — and almost entirely absent from English-language histories of the period, which focus on Prague. Worth corroborating with Czech historical sources and producing as a stand-alone short piece.
- The "Russian soldiers shot by their own commanders" claim (Section 1) — "a lot of Russian soldiers were killed here by their own commanders, because they thought they came to make us free, and when they came they realised there was nothing dangerous, and they started to ask questions, and they weren't allowed to ask anything, so they were simply shot." The interviewee says she believes this is true based on bodies found at a barracks near her family's country house. Treat with verification caution — it's the kind of claim that needs corroboration before use — but if true, it is significant.
- The Lenin lecture and the humour magazine (Section 3) — a 14-year-old laughing in class because she was reading jokes, parents summoned, "big drama." This is exactly the kind of small-stakes-but-defining everyday moment that lands with vulnerable audiences far more than abstract analysis. Strong candidate for a short-form piece.
- The domovník watching her father (Section 6) — the building caretaker as the regime's informer, and the father's joke "Oh, I'll be promoted" as defence mechanism. Universal-feeling moment of everyday surveillance.
- The Indians-versus-Russian-Partisans story (Section 8) — the children's play barometer of regime control. "Ten years before the revolution they had to say they were Russian Partisans; five years before, they could say they were Indians." Disarmingly small, beautifully specific.
- The drunk lawyer boss who signed his name four different ways (Section 7) — the late-regime stupidity at the institutional level. Pairs with the Pioneer-meeting story of the official who couldn't speak Czech and the children clapping for an hour.
- The uncle's prediction, three years before the Revolution (Section 9) — "the top communists are going to save their families and their relatives, and then they are going to give it up." If true, this is a remarkable insider note on the elite's foreknowledge of regime collapse. Worth seeing whether other interviewees say similar things.
- The Pioneer leader on the phone, Sunday evening 19 November 1989 (Section 10) — her boss telling her "relax," her saying "if it's true, I won't be doing this anymore." The moment a regime functionary stops being a regime functionary, in a single phone call.
- Her critique of post-1989 enthusiasm (Section 11) — "we shouldn't accept all the things that are coming from West just because they are coming from the West." Articulate, sympathetic, and a useful counterweight to the simple liberation-narrative of 1989. Pairs with the Indians vs Russian Partisans theme — independence of mind under pressure goes both directions.
project_audio_archive.md.