Czech Interview 04 — Petr Scherhaufer, director of Divadlo na provázku (Brno)

[On the international theatre tour, fragmentary Polish in the original] The events were in Copenhagen, Lausanne, Gwizdę [Poland], Blois, and Paris. Paris was the end. It seems that in that year, I was in — [he gives a year that is unclear]. It was also one of the biggest things that prepared the revolution. It also had political accents.

Second was the every-month meeting of the group which name was the Group of the Experimental CTS. We met officially and also secretly in Prague every month, and we prepared new laws — new propositions — for how theatre will function in open society, and so on.

Just the theatre? Or was it a bigger sort of thing?

Now I'm talking only about the theatre, but I also know that groups existed which prepared similar propositions in sculpture, in painting, in music. The group was joined, but in the rest I worked in the theatre group which prepared these things. That was the second very big — how to say it — movement. The first line of our program policy was that we are not only theatre. We want to be the movement. It comes from our program policy — from theatre to the state, and so on.

The third point is international connection and collaboration. We were the secret members of IFIT — the International Federation of Independent Theatre. Do you know what is the Third Theatre? Like Eugenio Barba speaks about it. Third theatre — not professional, not amateur. Third theatre is something like an open movement in Europe. It's like Odin Theatre, or like Grotowski theatre, and so on. This kind of theatre in Europe is called Third Theatre. Third Theatre has its own aesthetics, its own proclamation, its own working — and we did six international big projects.

About your question — how is it possible?

Because our friends from the West countries were very clever. They knew that for our government, they must give us not only an agreement or an invitation for a festival, but also for a workshop. It was a different kind. Our nation is very flexible — because we are still living between the powers. One side German, Hungary, Soviet, Russian, and so on. It is a special kind of character that we are very flexible.

But why would the government sign such a thing? The government must have known you were involved in these activities, yet they signed.

After we went back, we had a lot of — how do you say it? — punishments. But it was after. Before, it was very secret. Only we did it in personal connection, only to speak, and so on.

Co-operation — for instance, our chairman of parliament, Milan Uhde, is also a dramatist, very famous. We did the performances about Karel Sabina, who was the librettist of our national opera by Smetana. He was a secret collaborator with the secret police. We were playing about him — but the script was written by Milan Uhde. But in the program, and for official, it was Peter Scherhaufer and Petr Oslzlý. It was not only at our [theatre]; it was also in television. It depends on personal connection and personal —

Courage?

Yes, courage.

A lot of activities we did. Petr [Oslzlý], for instance, built a gallery in a drugstore. We had a friend who was the chief in a drugstore, in a very small shop like this room. And because some painters had no possibility to exhibit their own works, we did it in this shop. Every month was like a normal exhibition, between the things — on the walls and on the floor were the pictures.

Were you hoping to reach people? Or were you just trying to express yourself? Were you trying to expand the movement, to create some dissidents, to create some kind of change in the government? Or was it mere frustration and a need to express?

It was the so-called "Grey Zone." It was not dissident; it was something between dissident and the so-called normal people. It was a Grey Zone — or an Island of Positive Deviation — which joined people from different levels of society, from different specialisations: from the environment movement, from theatre, from high school, university, and so on. This activity was very often, and it's also one part of it.

I've heard of it, yeah. It's underground books and so on.

It's not only doing this book. More important is the mail — which we use for knowledge. What is new, and lend to each other, lend this book, or buy why this book was sold, and so on.

The lines of communication.

Yes. It was more important. And maybe it was the same people — part of the people was the same from, for instance, the Grey Zone, or from the Theatre Zone, or from the Islands of Positive Deviation.

Jazz Section. We also had a very close connection with the Jazz Section. For instance, we did a big festival — only at our theatre — during 21 days, and we gave them the possibility to play. They were forbidden, but in the frame of our festival we gave them the possibility to play.

Did they change their name?

Yes, also they changed their name. At one time — because the authorities had good information — they realised that, for instance, at one performance, they had a new name. And it was — within one minute, they would change the name. I don't know how to translate these names, but for instance, the group which was called From the Hill — the next name was [the Carich Rabbits — Czech band name, exact transliteration uncertain]. So it was very funny.

For instance, I did a special project in 1985 which was a project reading from the literature of the nations of the Soviet Union. Because we cannot normally play our dissidents, in this project, [we used texts] from Soviet Russia. And our government was so — how to say? For our government, the Soviet Union was so — sacred? Sacred. Yes. They didn't know, because they had no knowledge about this author and so on. We did it.

How did the people learn about your raison-dissident theatre and the plays? How did they know to come, and that these were special plays? Word of mouth?

It was on personal contact. Everybody knew that under the lines in newspapers and so on. When something was in official newspaper very criticised, everybody knew: "I must go because it is something which destroyed the brain of the authority." Everybody knew how to move in this situation. Because it is not the situation in the last 40 years. It is the situation in the last 300 or 500 years.

So there weren't actual pamphlets or leaflets printed and passed out? It was just word of mouth and very under the table?

Yes, also.

How was Charter 77 and members of Charter 77 influential?

In our theatre there were some people who signed it. Now one is the chief of Mahenovo divadlo [Mahen Theatre]. For instance, he's sitting in the next room.

Because of pressure from the government?

Yeah. For instance, one was the painter, and he did an exhibition which was called Our Home, Our Country. All the pictures were from a map of our country, a map of Czechoslovakia. For instance, in Prague was Donald Duck. Or on the western border was Superman, and so on. Or here in this close — in Moravia — was the — how do you say it? — bell. And it was for government very — [much offence]. He must emigrate, and so on.

Just to clarify for myself — giving the passport to the police, what did that mean?

You cannot go to any country.

You can't anyway?

No, it's not symbolic. For instance, for me — in Poland or in Hungary, especially in Poland, there was a very big festival, one of the biggest in Europe. Poland was a more free country in culture policy. For instance, I saw all of Broadway American theatre, which was in Poland — Living Theatre, Bread and Puppet, Józef Szajna, and so on. All the performances I saw in Poland. When I must give the passport to the police, it was for me a very big punishment. Because the information about the books I am reading was in all Slavonic languages. Because, for instance, from Yugoslavia I read for the first time Orwell's book — or from Poland, and so on. It was very important.

But in the '70s, during Normalisation, was it possible to travel in East Bloc?

Yes, without problem if you have a passport. It was only one possibility for us — how to connect with the people. For instance, one of the European famous clowns, Bolek Polívka, his brother is living in Montreal, in Canada. And he did not see him from 1948 — after the communist push. And they both met in Budapest in 1975, for the first time. For us it was also a possibility to connect with people from West countries.

Being a member of Solidarność, for example, must have caused you problems with the government.

Nobody knew about it. Only in Poland they knew it — not here. It's not possible to say "I am a member of Solidarność." I worked in Łódź, because we have a very close friendship with one theatre in Poland — Theatre 77, famous name, also a very political theatre, now it's finished. In this theatre was a member of the Solidarność staff. They have a lot of books from Paris, and also from Polish friends. I cooperated with them in Poland. Now in Czechoslovakia I have the possibility to learn from the books and speak about them — for instance, in workshops or on directing, and so on.

It was a different way for different people, for different possibilities. For instance, in the church there was also a big possibility — especially in Slovakia. Because I was born in Slovakia. I'm Slovak, from Bratislava. There was the possibility to be active in a secret Catholic Church. There were processions, meetings, there was also a Catholic university, there were different books. The possibility was.

Could you describe to me what happened in 1968 with the Prague Spring — to the theatres, and how it was closed down?

For instance, for me — in 1968 I finished the school as a director. I had a wife and son, one year old. I was the director of the theatre here in Brno. They kicked me, and for two years I was unemployed. These two years we were very poor. I didn't want to work anything other. Because I was afraid that when I'm going — for instance, my parents recommended me to work on the railroad, or something different. But I discussed it with my wife. I have agreement — only this work. Directing.

Also, the big possibility was in amateur theatre. A lot of people who cannot work [in professional theatre] went to amateur theatre. That's the reason why Czech and Slovak amateur theatre is on so high a level. Because during these 20 years, a lot of people from professional theatre went and worked very hard in amateur theatre.

So you're, in the early '70s, going to small towns as directly —

If you saw on the map of Czech theatre after this — the more innovative are the groups from the small towns, not from Prague. For instance, in Liberec was Ypsilonka, in Prostějov was HaDivadlo, in Brno Divadlo na provázku, and so on. The 1970s — for me, and maybe for the critics, for the historians — the 1970s are the years of the regional movement. From the regions came this big movement. In Prague was not so innovative.

Why would that be? I would imagine that Prague would be a centre — many ideas, many people. How come in the regions?

It is a very traditional point of view that Prague is central. It is not true. Like any big city would be — yes, I know, but if you know the real situation in our country, something different is Prague, and the rest of the country is also something different. Not only the situation, but the thinking, but the aesthetic point of view.

[On 17 November 1989] We were playing on 17 November in Prague. We have the performance at 4 p.m. — not 7 — we have two performances, and we stopped like the first theatre. We are going first to the strike. It's a historical fact. And we met every week in the Theatre of Balustrade [Divadlo Na zábradlí]. And after, I cannot go —

Two questions. Was the theatre involved in organising the students?

Of course.

And how?

OK, I will explain. The main centre of the revolution was not only schools, but especially the theatres. Theatres have much more possibilities. Theatres have the people who are able to speak with people — actors and so on. Theatres have a big connection. You must know that not only in the revolution — if there is some news, theatre knows first. It is theatrical life. To speak, to phone — it is the life of the people of the theatre.

Where did you get this videotape?

From Prague.

And they received it from CNN, and so on?

Not only. We had four different tapes. One was from CNN, one was from Spanish television, one was from our independent television, and one was from Poland, the TV team. They took this film and obviously they edited it and supplied you with it. Immediately after, we did the copies and sent to the factories, to the schools, to the towns, and so on.

Through the students?

Not only. Our actors are coming during the day five, six times in different companies, shops, stores, factories — and speak with people about it. "Look and see, and say what do you mean." And also we have the paper with all the conditions which we want, and so on. Because Petr [Oslzlý] was in Prague, and we have very close connection. Also we have very close connection with Radio Free Europe — and during the phone, and so on. We have Xerox, and so we have the possibility to do it. It was not a problem.

I understand that they took with them the television and the VCR and the tape, and they set it up in the cities, in the small towns and villages.

That's so. Yeah. Not only we informed them about the situation in our town, in Prague — because there was different information, and we must correct what was true or not, what is only blah blah blah, and so on. Every morning we did something like a small meeting, and we divided the role — who is coming when and where. About 3 o'clock was the meeting of all members from all theatres, in our theatre. And the evening was the meeting of the town committee, how to do the evening manifestation. I also directed one of them. Our actors from our theatre also — not only from ours — were moderators of these big manifestations.

Here, for instance, the director of our big theatre — because we were part of the big national theatre, which is here: opera, ballet, drama, and so on. And HaDivadlo and our theatre — we were five and six parts, like experimental theatre. The director, chief of all these 1500 people, he wanted to close our theatre. We said no. We are still in the theatre during the day, during the night. We occupied.

I don't understand what documents.

In every organisation — in every factory, in every theatre, in every office — there was a small room, and one member of the secret police who was like a cadres office. Something like a personnel office. We had to give them, for instance, our passports after we came back from abroad, and so on. It was the first place we went — to the Committee of the Communist Party, to this office, the cadres office. But most of the materials, most of the papers, were destroyed, were out. We did it on the second day — but they were prepared.

How would that material help you?

We would know who was the collaborator with the secret police, if we have it. Who is secret member. Who is who. It was who-is-who, shortly saying. Because in different committees there were a lot of people which were former members of [the Party]. And these papers also could be dangerous for people — because it could be like a mafia. "I have some material about you and I —"

Blackmail you.

Yeah. That was the reason why we are going first to —

But why would they give it up at that point in the revolution? It was the same government in Prague. There were just demonstrations. Why if you go would they say "OK, take it"? What kind of authority had you already gained at that point?

Nobody governed in this time. Nobody was safe. Nobody was sure what was going, what will be. It was quite easy to discuss with them, because they were afraid. They were not sure.

Because you were one of the few groups that were organised.

No, not because. It was the situation. All was very destroyed. All was very unregulated. All things, all offices were destroyed. A lot of people went out. You must understand — we are learning, for instance me, 40 years about the revolution. About the big French Revolution, about the Soviet Revolution. I know — now I am 50 — in my own experience, four revolutions in Czechoslovakia. In '48, '56, and '68 — I know three revolutions, how they change the situation. For instance, I teach in Bratislava. I gave in 1987 to my pupils the work about the role of the theatre in the changing social situation — two years before. Because we know. I have my special material about Portugal, about Spain, about Poland. I participated in Poland in 1980.

So, in essence, there was a realisation that this would change the government from the beginning?

Yes, I think that was from the beginning. The first condition was that in the government there must also be members not only from the Communist Party. First condition. Second was — in our Ústava [state constitution], not a government act — what was the document in George Washington's time? Declaration of Independence? — in our constitution, before the revolution, the main article was that in Czechoslovakia the main role is played by the Communist Party. First condition: all the people — this article must go out. From this point we started.

One final question. What do you think about now? It's four years and a bit after the revolution. Have things gone how you would imagine it? Are things going right?

I have no imagination — I have knowledge. I explained to you five minutes ago that I know how the revolution is going. And for me it is not a surprise how it is going. It must be. Revolution must eat his own children. Revolution must have the wave of delusion, and so on. For me — because we know all the revolutions, we study about it — I think it is going like in all revolutions. It will be the longest process. Not like a lot of people imagine — during half a year, or three months, we will be like Germany or Austria, and so on. It's a big process. It must be a historical process — how the conditions and social structure, it's a big changing. Changing not only of the owners, but also changing of the social structure. Values. It is more important for me — the more important is the changing of the values.

Moral values?

Moral values, yes. Because, for instance, what can I say to my pupils about teaching and knowledge, when somebody — I give you some example. Here in hospital is chief of the clinic. He is the chairman. And he lost this place — left this place. He is going to Austria, and cleans one old rich man. You understand me? And only three weeks during the month — and they have four times more. You understand me? It is the problem of the values.

It seems to me there's also a problem with people now having to take a lot of responsibility for themselves.

It's also — but first for me it is the problem of the values. Because they are still not stable. What is what? I don't know how to say it in English. This is the problem. This example about the medical doctor is for me the best example of the changing of the values. It also has influence in all parts of our life — not only in medicine, also in the city, in the schools, and so on.

How do you notice it in the theatre?

Also — for instance — from USA are coming a lot of video films, yeah? Big category B, category C, and so on. And then somebody has, for instance, in Seattle a salary of 4,000. And when he is going to Bratislava to work one dubbing into Czech or Slovak, for one video, during one afternoon he has also for — he doesn't want to work much more in the theatre.

How does politics get hold of the newspapers? Who controls the newspapers? They're not state-owned still, are they?

Parties.

They're party newspapers?

Yes. But in the real situation the newspapers are part of parties.

But I think that we did the mistake — because I imagined that we would collect all material about the situation in all theatres during the revolution. How to do, how was, which situation, like your work. I think it's a big mistake of Czech theatre. Because it's something like — the plan? — feedback, you understand? Not only collect all materials from all theatres, but also collect all materials from other countries. How they changed, which dramaturgy was, and so on, and compare. It was the big basis for the new way for our theatre. I imagined. It's a big mistake.

Why would that be a mistake?

Nobody collected.

Oh, nobody collected?

Nobody. Collected only somebody from USA or from Canada, or something like that. Nobody from Czechoslovakia. We have a special academy for the theatre arts, which could do it — but nobody collected. Not only collected, but also compared with the changing in Hungary, Poland, Russia, East Germany, Portugal, Spain. For instance, in Argentina or Chile, it's the same situation — changing of the social and moral values. And we can compare which title is going here. I did one small work about it — about the situation of the theatre in these times.

Can I get a hold of a yearbook like that? Is it possible?

Of course. [Czech in original] The Divadelní ústav [Theatre Institute] has them. When you are in Prague, it is Celetná 17. They will give you everything.

This book that you wrote, has it been translated to English, or is it only in Czech?

I think that the résumé is in English. [Czech in original] The Czech yearbook was for 1989–90. In English it is Yearbook of Czech Theatre 1989. It's a yellow book. But they will give you more — they have also in English language about the famous scenographers, like Svoboda or Vychodil, and so on. If you want, they will give you. Go to Madame Helena Albertová — Albert. She is the chairman of this. She speaks English also; she directed in the USA. She is very friendly. She is a former wife of Pavel Landovský.

I'm not familiar with Pavel Landovský.

Landovský was a very famous actor. Now he is a member of the Burgtheater in Vienna. He went there because he signed Charter 77 and they —

Anything that you could tell me is very important for me. How are you for time? I understand you're a very busy person.

I must ask my people if there's a rehearsal for me. I want to see his semester work.

Well, it's up to you. If you have time, I'd love to talk with you still — but I understand. I have most of the things that are important to me.

I propose to you, if you have some more questions, please write it and I will send you. It's no problem. More precise. Maybe I send you more material about it, if you want.

Yes, it would be very good. Thank you very much.

Because it is not a problem for me. Now we have facts and so on. I love facts too. Facts, Xerox.

For me it's part of what I was studying — in communications and so on. How these machines are revolutionising the ability to communicate, especially over distance. For example, in China, Beijing, the crackdown — they were organising it from Toronto and faxing things over. And they were faxing back to different places because they couldn't communicate inside; it would go out and come back in. Incredible.

It was also one of the elements of the revolution — the technology. First of all, our friends from West countries came and gave us the PC, and faxes, and Xerox, and so on. And that was the reason that the government has no possibility. Before the revolution, every paper must be signed, every paper must be controlled. And now we have the possibility to do posters and articles and so on. It was very good for the revolution. It was a technological revolution.

Were you faxing information back and forth from the government here?

Not only. We also did all the results of the committees, from the students, from the factories, and so on. We put on the wall to people, to society, and so on. It was very important. In the 1970s and '80s it was not allowed to have photocopy machines and so on. In 1968 it was not [allowed either], but the revolution of 1989 was the revolution of technology also.

I've seen some pictures. Some other people I was speaking with — George and Lucy — have given me negatives of pictures they were taking in '89, on the streets, with the posters and so on, that were all over the place.

Yeah, yeah. I have a book. If you want, I will send you, I will give you. No problem.

I'll go there right away. That's great. But if you want, I will send you — please.

If you don't mind, I'd like to take a picture or two.

Okay. Against the window? It will pick it up.

Your last name is German. Do you have a German heritage also?

Yeah.

Me too. My grandpa. Thank you.