Originally I am — OK. Just say your name and spell it.
I'm Chris. I'm not from Colesburg. I'm from Transkei — I think you know Transkei. It used to be a homeland. That's where my neighbours and others are from too. In a place called Ngcobo — E-N-G-C-O-B-O. That's where I grew up.
And actually, Chris, can you give me your last name as well?
Jali — J-A-L-I.
When did you start here?
In this office, July 1997.
What I'm doing here, I'm doing basically litigation. We don't do criminal cases, but sometimes we do them — especially when they are linked with civil cases which we intend to institute. We have a case in Venterstad now where a sheriff, together with the South African police, went to attach property to one of the residents there — and then they shot the owner, and then arrested the children, and they shot at the doors in the house inside. It was just a car horse, in fact. [Likely "carnage" — a brutal, unjustified raid.] And the children were arrested, and now they are being charged with obstruction of justice. So that's a criminal case, not a civil one — but because it is linked with the way the police handled the execution of the property, where people were shot and all those things, we decided that I must represent them in that criminal charge. Which will be on the 1st of December.
How has law changed from before 1994 and now? Do you have a sense?
Well, I think basically the introduction of the Bill of Rights in South Africa has changed many things. Let me take you to the tradition of one of our judges — Judge Didcott, who I think passed away some month ago. The problem, as you know, is that most of our laws were based on a racial connotation, I would say so. You will find that the parliament was the one who was passing all our laws — and all our laws were based on that connotation.
But generally on the ground, you'll see that racism still applies. Remember — we were in Queenstown with Manelisi and another guy, we arrived here last Friday — we went to one of these lodges. And this lady, the first, you could see that she didn't want us to go there. She came with an excuse — firstly that —
What was the first excuse?
No visitors are allowed. OK — that was the second excuse. The first one I don't remember. But even then, she also told us that "that one is expensive, you must go to the others." But because it was beautiful — that was the one we wanted to stay in. But she said: "No visitors are allowed."
What's it going to take to change that? How will that change?
I think really it will take time for it to change. Maybe the new generation — because now, we still owe an allegiance to certain organisations. Like if you are a black man, you rather not vote if you are not going to vote for ANC, for example. You don't see yourself voting for a white-leaning party like the National Party or DP. I think — like in America — what we have to do in South Africa is to check what is best for us, for the country. Not what is best for my own tribe or people of the same colour as I am.
What do people think of a man like Anthony — a white man coming to help?
I just want to tell you one thing — especially among my people, the black people: if you are a white man and you would like to be with them, they take you to the very high degree. We had an intern from Denmark last year — he wanted to stay with us in a township. We found a room for him. He was there, and people loved him. They always wanted to talk to him. I think he found the township very nice. According to him, he found that people were friendly. It's not what his first perception about black people was — that they are violent, and they are thieves. Of course, people do steal and do all those things — but if they see you as a white man and you stay with them, they like it. Because it's not usual in South Africa for a white man to go and stay with black people.
Tell me now about you and what you hope to do. How old are you, Chris?
I'm 28.
28, so you have your career ahead of you. What do you hope to do?
In the meantime — although I like litigation, I don't see myself pursuing a career in litigation. I want to change my career and be a commercial attorney as the times go. Because at the end, everything will be normal. There won't be any more human rights violations. People will know about their rights — because we are busy doing education. The police and all other state actors — and even just other people — will now know that if they violate other people's rights, they will be in trouble. So I think everything is going to change as the time goes.
How long?
Let's say 10 years from now. The reason I'm saying so is because if you can see the new generation — the students who are in the multi-racial schools now — they do realise that "this person is like me. What was said in the past years is not correct." But if you take time — more than 10 years — to start living together, I'm telling you. Like marrying a white man or a white lady. That is happening with those prominent guys like [Tokyo Sexwale] and others. But you don't expect a white lady, because of cultural difference, to go and stay in the rural areas. Where you are supposed to marry someone — she must come with you and stay in rural areas. And they will go and fetch water using the bucket. She must carry it on her head. She can't do that, because our culture is different.
Is there anything else you think Canadian students should know about South Africa?
What I can say is — about our kind of education. Although they have tried to improve it, the past is still with us, especially with the black kids — you'll find that in their schools there's a lot of disruption. Unlike in the multi-racial schools. So most of the people now prefer to take their children to multi-racial schools, rather than to our own schools — because there are a lot of disruptions there.
Chris, you're from the eastern part of the country, so you must be Zulu?
I'm a Xhosa.
You're Xhosa. OK. I thought that the Xhosas were more on the east or on the west.
You find them in the Eastern Cape. In fact, in Cape Province there are a lot. Most are in the Eastern Cape — and you find some in the Western Cape, in Khayelitsha. Most black people in the Western Cape are Xhosa people. And in some parts of Northern Cape too — like Colesburg, for example.
What would your title be here?
I'm an attorney. Simple as that. I'm just an attorney.
Great. Thank you very much. It was very interesting.
- Ngcobo — town in former Transkei, now part of Eastern Cape Province; Chris's birthplace and where he was educated through high school
- Inyanga High School — Chris's high school in Ngcobo
- University of Transkei (UNITRA) — now incorporated into Walter Sisulu University; Chris's first degree (B.Proc) institution
- University of Natal, Pietermaritzburg — now University of KwaZulu-Natal; Chris's LL.B institution
- University of Cape Town — Chris's Certificate in Litigation institution
- Skars & Jacks — the white-owned attorneys' firm in Colesburg where Chris articled and now practises; the firm hosting the rural public defender pilot programme described in Interview 01
- Judge John Didcott (1931–1998) — distinguished anti-apartheid Natal Provincial Division judge, later Constitutional Court justice; died in October 1998. Famous for the principle Chris attributes to him: "saying what the law ought to be, not what the law is." The South African legal anti-apartheid tradition's central judicial figure.
- Manelisi — Chris's colleague in Queenstown, name not further specified
- Anthony — the white person Mark asks about in Section 6 — identification confirmed in May 2026 as the founder of the Karoo Mobile Law Clinic (the unnamed interviewee in South African Interview 01). Confirmed from a photograph supplied by Mark in May 2026, taken by Wim Kok, showing Anthony on his farm in the Colesburg district. Anthony's surname is still to be verified.
- The Danish intern — the previous foreign intern who lived in the township; likely the second Claire intern Charmaine mentioned in Interview 01, or another previous placement
- B.Proc — Bachelor of Procurement, a South African undergraduate law degree
- LL.B / NLP — the South African post-graduate law degree (Whisper rendered as "NLP")
- DP — Democratic Party (predecessor to the Democratic Alliance, then the main white-leaning opposition party)
- Tokyo Sexwale — prominent black ANC politician married to a white South African; Chris references him as an example of cross-racial marriage among "prominent guys" (Whisper rendered as "Tocqueville" and other variants)
- Truth and Reconciliation Commission — Chris references the TRC hearings (Whisper: "two-thirds of questions things hearings"), which had been operating since 1996 and were drawing to a close at the time of this interview
- Ubuntu — Nguni Bantu philosophical concept of "I am because we are"; cited by Chris as the cultural foundation that survived apartheid
- "What the law ought to be, not what the law is" (Section 3). Chris's articulation of Judge Didcott's jurisprudence as inspiration. A genuinely beautiful sentence from a young black attorney who grew up under apartheid law, naming the moral practice that survived inside the legal system even when the system itself was unjust. Pairs editorially with the Karoo lawyer's account of using the courts modestly to "even the balance" (Interview 01).
- The Queenstown lodge (Section 4). Specific, dated, documented racism in a Northern Cape lodge in late 1998 — four years after the end of apartheid. Pairs editorially with Sonwabo's "we are baboons" passage (Interview 03, Section 15) — same period, different venues, same residue. The two together make a single short-form piece on the texture of "racism still applies" in 1998 rural South Africa.
- "We cannot forgive while we still smell the blood of our brothers" (Section 5). Chris quoting a TRC testimony — a passage that the South African High Commissioner approached from the policy side in his 1998–99 address. The same moral problem stated by the High Commissioner as policy and by a Karoo TRC witness as lived testimony, reported by a third-generation voice (Chris). Three angles, one truth.
- The Danish intern in the township, and ubuntu (Section 6). Chris's account of why the township welcomes a white visitor who is willing to stay there. A direct counter-perspective to Kahin Ismail's account (Interview 02) of being housed in the same kind of township arrangement — Kahin describes his own experience, Chris explains the cultural logic behind why his community made it work. Together they tell the same story from inside and outside.
- "I want to be a commercial attorney as the times go" (Section 7). Chris's optimism about the trajectory of South African human rights work — that the human rights specialty will become unnecessary as rights become respected, and he can move to commercial practice. Editorially poignant given what happened in South Africa over the following twenty-five years — the optimism is partly vindicated and partly devastatingly wrong. A 1998 voice saying "in 10 years it will be normal" is the same psychological moment captured in interview after interview across this archive — Czech, Slovak, South African. The studio's editorial work in 2026 begins from this point: the gap between what 1998 thought 2018 would look like and what 2018 actually looked like.